Diet and Fat: A Severe Case of Mistaken Consensus

re: Diet and Fat: A Severe Case of Mistaken Consensus

Charles Beal — Thu, 01 Nov 2007 05:10:02 GMT

I despair of the ill-informed comments in this thread of debate. Closed minds and fixed viewpoints do not lead to the uncovering of truth. I would find the debate more encouraging if there were some references to real research rather than just opinions strongly held. Pesita's comments about Taubes being torn to shreds does not stand up to rational scrutiny. If you actually take the trouble to read Taubes' work, and his rebuttal of the criticism of the original fat lies article, and the further reply by Fumento, you can see that Taubes actually addresses the criticism in a rational and measured way unlike Fumento who tends to engage in personal comments and ignores any arguments he doesn't agree with.

This is so reminiscent of the approach Keys and his 'all fat is bad and especially saturated fat' hypothesis and his followers which appears to have led to the obesity and chronic bad health epidemic that we see today: Ignore all data which tends to disprove your pet hypothesis, go with the consensus, and above all, don't think for yourself.

Take the trouble to read the research, including that which you don't agree with and perhaps the truth will become clearer.

re: Diet and Fat: A Severe Case of Mistaken Consensus

Holden — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 19:14:07 GMT

Please, please, please be careful. A little lean, grass-fed meat here and there is not a problem, but perpetuating the idea that a lot of meat in the diet is OK and even good for you could lead some folks down the path to an early death. And as for as cholesterol goes, particle size also makes a huge difference in cholesterol levels, as nonegiven mentioned. An advanced lipid panel along with a little Apo E test can help you determine how diet will effect your lipid levels. Anyone with a family history of CAD, especially involving a family member as young as 40's and 50s needs to pay extra attention to detail. I saw a healthy 56yo patient this morning with a normal BMI and BF% who met "desirable" lipid levels on all accounts and eats a diet of mostly organic vegetables and meats and the occassional whole grain... but she had CAD. She noticed an unusual spike in blood pressure after her daily run one morning, called for an ambulance, and was cathed just several hours later. She had two stents put in and was only a hair shy of having an MI. I have no beef with grass-fed red meats... but I do want to warn everyone that heart disease has no body-type, diet-type, or fitness-type. It can affect anyone.

re: Diet and Fat: A Severe Case of Mistaken Consensus

edward_203 — Fri, 26 Oct 2007 04:22:41 GMT

A mountain of evidence has shown that animal protein is highly acidic and human bodies try to buffer this acidity by robbing the bones of calcium for this purpose creating osteoporosis. Further, cancer cells thrive in an acidic environment. Saturated animal fat has the same effect. Read the research good people before falling for the myth of the goodness of saturated fat intake. the evidence is overwhelming in this regard. So caveat emptor. the truth about the Paleolithic diet is that early Hominids evolved on a largely plant based diet. Animal flesh was hard to come by. Little animals were too fast to catch, large animals were too dangerous to kill. Keep in mind that early humans had no weapons, no traps, few tools of any kind so gathering was the easiest and safest way to get food. Humans to this day have the same digestive tracts mostly plant food oriented and a little bit carnivore, just enough to make us omnivorous. We are very far from from carnivorous. the domestic animal vendors have done a great job of brain washing as have the Soy crowd and the Hybrid Corn pushers. Switch to a plant based diet and watch your blood tests parameters improve dramatically. the numbers don't lie. For most of my life I was a carnivore, I got sicker and sicker on my eighty third birthday I saw the light and now one year later I am re-born, I got lucky. So can you.

re: Diet and Fat: A Severe Case of Mistaken Consensus

nonegiven — Thu, 25 Oct 2007 20:13:52 GMT

1) TC-160, HDL-53, RATIO of 3.1

2) TC-178, HDL-51, RATIO of 3.5

3) TC-242, HDL-64, RATIO of 3.7

4) TC-332, HDL-81, RATIO of 4.1

That's a huge difference for only nine months. Did you get all those tests at the same lab? Did you fast for 10-14 hours for all of them? An HDL that high is supposed to protect you from heart attack. Without your triglycerides it is hard to tell if the non-HDL is bad. If most of your LDL is large, fluffy particles you're likely in pretty good shape, if most of it is small, dense particles then you're in trouble. If your triglyceride:HDL ratio is less than 2 it points to having the good kind. The thing is, the fluffy LDL particles hold more cholesterol than the small dense ones and saturated fat can make your cholesterol go up, but it isn't necessarily a bad thing. One thing you might try is to drop all supplements for several days before the next test because some of them may interfere with an accurate test. Also, having very low or very high triglycerides can throw off the equation they use for calculating LDL [LDL=TC-HDL-(triglycerides/5)] Very high triglycerides can cause LDL to be underestimated and very low triglycerides can cause LDL to be overestimated because of the amount of IDL (that becomes the large, fluffy, good LDL). You may want to find a lab that can measure LDL directly instead of by difference. If your triglycerides are very high you should check into what might be causing that. VLDL (transports the triglycerides) being high is worse than LDL being high because they turn into the small, dense, bad LDL particles.

re: Diet and Fat: A Severe Case of Mistaken Consensus

RAF tartan — Thu, 25 Oct 2007 19:31:30 GMT

Dr Esselstyn's book "prevent and reverse heart disease seems to demonstrate that elimination of all animal fat has a significant effect on cholesterol and as a consequence cardiac issues are improved.

re: Diet and Fat: A Severe Case of Mistaken Consensus

peseta — Thu, 25 Oct 2007 16:23:20 GMT

Taubes and Tierney are notoriously unreliable 'science' writers. taubes' screed was torn to shreds in a Washington Post article, but Tierney ignores such upstarts. And you'll note, global warming doubters swallow the argument here whole. Back to school, guys, this is no place for 'scholarship.'

re: Diet and Fat: A Severe Case of Mistaken Consensus

Wils — Thu, 25 Oct 2007 16:21:03 GMT

Your stand on saturated fat will lead to the death of again millions of people. It shows me sometimes the experts looking at an issue through a magnifieing glass at a small piece miss the big picture. Excessive Saturated fat clogs arteries, its the # one killer, Heart attacks and Strocks and the countless other ailments resulting from this. Just remove or greatly reduce meat and dairy and your health improves, replace this with more raw vegtables and you will become even more healthy, I've done it and it works. Check out the China study. its common sense and simple, problem is there is not much money in it for the vitamine and Drug industries. I had my Father, Uncle, Friends, all die of stroke or heart attacks. They were not major transfat eaters they were meat and potatoe simple eaters. They all had clogged arteries and suffered from the many ailments that resulted from that. Keep it simple, it's obviouse, get your head out of the microscope, look around. If you check any of the diets that work a little, one element has to be the reduction in meat or dairy products "Saturated Fats" I agree, a little saturated fat we can handle but not to the extent that our society has embraced it as our God, and then you and others set us back for another generation to die unneccisarily by clouding the issue for those that trust you. If people eat saturated fat they will need your products to stay healthy. I do not take any vitamins or suppliments and since cutting out meat and most dairy I have had optimal health, my blood pressure is like that of an athlete, which I am not, I only do moderate exercise, I don't get sick anymore, I don't get colds. Taking the surgeon generals advice can only lead people to better health "Cut out Saturated fats " I don't care what studies you throw out, they don't fit reality, you can construct any study to reach the result you want, Which in NorthaAmerica is "We Want to eat Meat and not feel guilty about it". Eat your meat then, but do it in moderation because it does cause Strokes and heart attacks, Ive seen it and lived it and am now in excellent health because it is no longer a part of my diet.

re: Diet and Fat: A Severe Case of Mistaken Consensus

ggpax4dumpedtea — Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:50:37 GMT

As you know, Doctor, it is not fat, it is the kind of fat that relates to many health problems, including cardiovascular disease. The polyunsaturated fats from such things as corn and soy can be deadly. Only these polyunsaturated fats can be the precursors of transfats. Personally I believe that a lot of the hype out there today about transfats is smokescreen to take the heat off the polyunsaturated fats that dominate the fat in so many diets today. Polyunsaturated fats in the diet are responsible for the pandemics of insulin resistance, obesity, cardiovascular problems, arthritis, cancer in this country.

In Ancel Keyes defense, he did argue against the emphasis on polyunsaturated fats in the diet. Much of his dietary-population related studies were done with Dr Paul Dudley White, President Eisenhower's heart doctor when he had is heart attack in the mid 50's while President.

Palm oils, especially coconut oil, were used generously in prepared foods prior to the emphasis on the polunsaturated fats in the mid 60's. They were healthy. In my opinion, one supported by much research, return to coconut oil in place of the polyunsaturated vegetable oils in our diet would begin to reverse the trend toward more and more serious disease.

re: Diet and Fat: A Severe Case of Mistaken Consensus

jmills616 — Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:28:52 GMT

I'm a 44 yr old male and have always been on the "thin side" at 155lbs. No health problems and no family history of heart disease, diabetes or cholesterol problems.

The only "health issues" that I have been plagued with is sleep and digestion problems, intestinal bloating, gas and colds with the occasional fever blisters. It didn't seem to matter what diet I was on.

Over the last 8 months I started to slowly increase my raw milk and dairy consumption starting with raw cheese in my salads and progressing to drinking several cups of raw milk (and kefir) each day. My typical breakfast consists of one cup of raw milk kefir (or raw milk), two farm fresh eggs a dash of stevia. This is very delicious and filling for many hours.

Since being on this diet I've noticed that I've felt exceptionally good and relaxed. My intestinal health has improved dramatically. I feel calm, warm and relaxed. While those around me were experiencing severe colds and flu I was fine. This maybe proving what I’ve been reading about low cholesterol and increased susceptibility to infection.

Here’s my concern. I’ve had my cholesterol tested four times in the last nine months since increasing my dairy and saturated fat intake. They have steadily risen. Here are the test results as follows showing the TC (Total Cholesterol), HDL and the corresponding ratio:

1) TC-160, HDL-53, RATIO of 3.1

2) TC-178, HDL-51, RATIO of 3.5

3) TC-242, HDL-64, RATIO of 3.7

4) TC-332, HDL-81, RATIO of 4.1

Here’s my dilemma. I’ve never felt better. Should I change or modify the diet? The “mainstream media and propaganda machine” thinks so. Part of me “knows better” from the research and direct personal experience. However, the “brainwashed” part of me is scared and concerned that I maybe doing myself harm. What do I do? Anybody else experiencing the same elevated cholesterol levels? I see many people experiencing the exact opposite effect. Any thoughts and comments would be appreciated.

Thanks,

John

re: Diet and Fat: A Severe Case of Mistaken Consensus

ls_night — Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:28:01 GMT

This sounds a lot like how global warming became the issue it is today. That is how Al Gore's movie was researched. There were maybe ten thousand studies on global climate and they used about 900 for the movie to prove their point. Very deceptive. So now because of the same practice 50 years ago we have a nation that is basically sick because we were told to avoid fat.

re: Diet and Fat: A Severe Case of Mistaken Consensus

Biggs — Thu, 25 Oct 2007 11:13:23 GMT

oh another thing to consider, the #4 killer is Alzheimer's disease which was first recognized in 1979....correlates to the cholesterol paranoia (getting it low)....myelin (insulating material of the nerves) makes up 75% of brain weight...myelin is made up of 100% cholesterol....your body makes 10% the other 90 must come from your diet....so be careful of low cholesterol numbers...source Dr. Joel D. Wallach..perhaps a little research for everyone paranoid about making those numbers go below 200....

re: Diet and Fat: A Severe Case of Mistaken Consensus

buddha — Thu, 25 Oct 2007 10:47:39 GMT

While Koop can claim the better beard-growing technique than AlGore,

the ex-VP could really teach the ex-SG a thing or three about how to ride a (mis)"informational cascade" to power and profit.

re: Diet and Fat: A Severe Case of Mistaken Consensus

Biggs — Thu, 25 Oct 2007 10:35:10 GMT

Elevated blood cholesterol and triglycerides is a symptom of a problem (ie diabetes, thyroid problems, nutritional deficiencies of vitamins & minerals) much like a fever...fevers don't cause infections; just like elevated blood cholesterol and triglycerides don't cause diseases....so don't get too hyped about those numbers.....

re: Diet and Fat: A Severe Case of Mistaken Consensus

moo_203 — Thu, 11 Oct 2007 14:58:12 GMT

thanks katee,
no i have'nt mentioned my diet habits to my doc as yet. i intend to tho. i'm not sure if he could take it! he thinks i'm crazy anyway for refusing a bone scan and all the meds that go with it.

re: Diet and Fat: A Severe Case of Mistaken Consensus

seg — Wed, 10 Oct 2007 16:45:14 GMT

Boils down to foolish pride at the expense of the masses.
Take care of yourself ,your own, and pass on to others what you know and learn......