The Best Alternative Energy Car

re: The Best Alternative Energy Car

Almont-Dave — Sat, 06 Dec 2008 19:54:02 GMT

As an engineer involved in the energy conservation field, compressed air is the most expensive utility in an industrial environment. A machine has to compress the air and that machine must consume energy, typically elecric or fossil. Even if electric, something has to turn the generator that makes the electricity. There are losses in every step of energy conversion. What I'm saying is, I'm not sure how efficient it would be. And, what about the infrastructure to deliver the "fuel". I have a Ford Escape Hybrid, the one almost nobody talks about because its made by an American company in the US (can't be any good if its not foreign). It is a comfortable, safe, and substantial vehicle (over 4000 pounds) that I have averaged 31.5 MPG with over the 38000 miles I've owned it. Hybrids are an immediate solution to fuel economy that is available today while all these other alternatives are investigated and made practical.

re: The Best Alternative Energy Car

Winddoc — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 00:26:27 GMT

Although I have no experience with the compressed air car, I have to report that the water electrolysis 'hydrogen generator' does actually save me 22% in my 2000 Chrysler Concorde, based on my nerdy measurement of over 1700 miles of before vs. after installation. I originally bought my unit from "savefuel.ca", and it worked for less than one week before warping beyond use. Their guarantee is absolutely worthless. I made some minor modifications, using better PVC plastic, and that worked for more than a year, although winters in upstate NY were tough to keep the water- alcohol from freezing. I merely had to remove and clean the unit each 3 months, and add rain or distilled water every time I filled the gas tank. I had no problems in driveability or "corroding my engine". Never had any explosions, fires, etc. My current car, made necessary by a deer, doesn't have enough room to place the same size unit, or smaller, even, under the hood. All I can say, is that it Does work, but it's not for the person who isn't interested in finding out how to open the hood of his car.

re: The Best Alternative Energy Car

kestee — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 15:59:01 GMT

Finally Mercola is talking about something I know something about!

The fuel for compressed air powered cars is, obviously, compressed air. Air compressors are horribly inefficient. A compressed air power system is only about 15% efficient. Let's assume that the air was compressed into the storage tank using an air compressor driven by an electric motor. Let's also assume the electricity for that electric motor came from a coal fired power plant. Let's now calculate the overall system efficiency using some industry rules of thumb:

efficiency of coal fired power plant = 35%

efficiency of air compressor = 15%

system efficiency = 35% x 15% = 5.25%

That means that only 5% of every pound of coal provides a useful purpose. The other 95% is lost as inefficiencies. What a horrible waste of energy! I suppose one could use a wind turbine or solar panels to generate the electricity for the air compressor. But you would need to buy a lot of them to make-up for the horrible efficiency of air compressors.

Electric motors are about 90% efficient. Battery chargers are about 80% efficient. That leads to a better (but still low) system efficiency:

system efficiency = 35% x 90% x 80% = 25.2%

The fuel cell concept sounds okay, but how do you get the compressed Hydrogen? This is the fuel afterall. Right now, they take it from natural gas (expensive). In the future they plan to use renewable energy sources to separate H and O atoms, storing them in separate tanks. A very current article on fuel cells has been attached for your reading pleasure :) Even fuel cells only convert 47% of the energy available in the Hydrogen + Oxygen --> Water reaction. The system efficiency of a Hydrogen powered fuel cell is not exemplary. It is shown below.

system efficiency = 100% x 15% x 47% = 7.05%

The calculation above even gives them extra credit for using a wind turbine or solar cells to generate electricity (100% efficient). The efficiency of compressing the Hydrogen again ruins the system efficiency. The primary advantage of the fuel cell is the absence of toxic emissions from the tailpipe. They also get rid of the need for a large battery. Instead of the battery, they use high pressure tanks of Hydrogen (5,000 psi at least). I find this a little scary. Can you say BOOM???

In my humble opinion, the best long term transportation solution for people is the electric car using a battery. The battery technology is improving every day. As the production volume grows for these large batteries, the costs will decrease while quality, cost and capacity will all increase. Using wind turbines or solar panels for the power inputs, here is the system efficiency:

system efficiency = 100% x 80% x 90% = 72%

This is by far the best use of our resources. It also uses existing wind turbines, solar panels and electric motors. Only the batteries have been lacking until recently. As with any new technology, there will be "disruptive" aspects. The batteries will initially be larger, more expensive, prone to failures, etc. This is the case with any disruptive technology. Over time the bugs will be worked out and the product will improve. I just hope General Motors is around long enough to reap the benefits of this new market / business.

re: The Best Alternative Energy Car

Milan_203 — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 15:47:31 GMT

Shell Oil Company: Achieves 376.59 MPG with a Modified 1959 Opel in 1973 Shell Oil Company wrote "Fuel Economy of the Gasoline Engine" (ISBN 0-470-99132-1); it was published by John Wiley & Sons, New York, in 1977. On page 42 Shell Oil quotes the President of General Motors who in 1929 predicted 80 MPG by 1939. Between pages 221 (see Link) and 223 (see Link) Shell writes of their achievements: 49.73 MPG around 1939; 149.95 MPG with a 1947 Studebaker in 1949; 244.35 MPG with a 1959 Fiat 600 in 1968; 376.59 MPG with a modified 1959 Opel in 1973 (photos of these three cars are shown on page 223).

The Library of Congress, in September 1990, did not have a copy of this book. It was missing from their files, of course. Byron Wine bought a copy from Maryland Book Exchange around 1980 after a professor informed him that it was used as an engineering text at the University of West Virginia.

re: The Best Alternative Energy Car

campeau.serge — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 03:26:24 GMT

Listen people, I have a Master Degree in enginering and I made my project on a hybrid car. I have been working R&D for many years.

Many people here don't know what there are talking about.

First, compressed air vehicle technology has NOTHING to do with innefficient typical garage compressors and power tools. They apparently found new special ways of using compressed air which would give much better efficiency. That's why, it is becomming NOW interesting and COULD work. Researchers are not so stupids as you say. Come on! Keep in mind that charge/discharge efficiency of batteries is not very good anyway.

Electric cars ARE the better short term option and could have been used already since 10 years by many users. It's useless trying to find a solution that could replace ALL cars. It's a waste of time and it's impossible. Many people do not drive more than 30 km (19 miles) a day to go to work. A 2 place car with simple old lead-acid batteries can easily give you a range of 80-100 km on a 10 hours recharge, which is far enough for most "second" car. It's a question of habits. The EV1 was a good exemple.

About the cost, all is a question of production volumes. There is NO comparaison between high production (in millions of units) volume and production of a few hundred units (like the Tesla or many other electric cars so far). Developpment and tooling cost for a car is extremely expensive. The production methods for low volume is very differents than the real car industry. At 1000/years a small company would need to sell a stupid Cavalier maybe 180 000$ in order to make money.

By the way, the Telsa is based on the chassis of the Lotus Elyse, which cost 60000$ in its standard gas version with a Toyota 4 cyl motor. It's a very high performance car in limited volume. The 100 000$ has nothing to do with the fact that it's electric. LI-Ion and other advanced battery cost will drop very sharply in next years. Electric cars will become affordables soon.

Serge

re: The Best Alternative Energy Car

LLL — Sat, 08 Nov 2008 21:05:00 GMT

I agree with those who have said that compressed air takes energy to produce. That is the first thing that I thought of when I read this (well, OK, the second thing, after "neat concept !!!"). And where does that energy come from ? Must be some sort of fuel ! Interesting concept, but how is that "saving the planet" ?

Even cars that you plug in, the electricity comes from.... mostly fossil fuels, so the pollution may not be produced by the car, but it is produced where the electricity is produced.... unless it's a "green" source of electricity, but even then, energy is required to produce the components, even for solar panels or wind turbines.

I'm definitely all for alternative energy, but I think people forget how things are produced even to produce "alternative" energy, like fuels to make them, fuels to transport them.

What did I hear about ethanol ? Something along the lines of it taking a lot of energy, fuel, fertilizers (from petro sources) to produce ??

re: The Best Alternative Energy Car

Newportian — Sat, 08 Nov 2008 09:43:22 GMT

Check out the FACTS, explanation and description of this innovative SELF powered, with integrated air compressor turbochargers, using frictionless air bearings and new, non polluting-durable-practical-efficient and CHEAP silicone salt battery technology, integrated with a turbine engine. Still under development to produce a working prototype......this is a totally green vehicle that leaves the air cleaner than before, zero pollutants.

peswiki.com/.../Directory:Magnetic_Air_Car,_Inc.

re: The Best Alternative Energy Car

Heather Marsh — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 09:31:16 GMT

au.youtube.com/watch

another clip to view

re: The Best Alternative Energy Car

Heather Marsh — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 09:27:22 GMT

au.youtube.com/watch

re: The Best Alternative Energy Car

Heather Marsh — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 07:24:54 GMT

au.youtube.com/watch

check the glass jar- it is very similar to the one used in the water4gas set up

re: The Best Alternative Energy Car

Heather Marsh — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 07:20:53 GMT

There is actually a fellow who invented a water burning flame for welding - I will try to find the you-tube clip to post it here

re: The Best Alternative Energy Car

HansMassage_203 — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 01:24:26 GMT

My solution is an electrical generating engine that works like a shake flash light. It has one moving part, the magnet that goes back and forth through a coil of wire. To convert it to a two cycle engine would require three more moving parts, two valves and an exhaust driven turbocharger. Two pistons and magnet would move as one unit. Lubrication would be at the bearings and through the connecting shaft to the rings.

re: The Best Alternative Energy Car

chubby — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 00:04:44 GMT

A " few years back " MOTHER EARTH NEWS did a story about an ENGINEER from Arkansas converted his 1970 OPAL GT to an ELECTRIC HYBRID for around $ 2000.00 --- it got 75MPG --- and had UNLIMITED RANGE --- MOTHER published the complete plans with all the necessary info for their readers to do a similar conversion on any STICK - SHIFT small car or truck ( preferably under 2500 # weight ) --- INTERESTINGLY --- the concept --- having a small onboard gas engine to drive a heavy duty alternator to keep the batteries charged --- ( thats where the small amount of fuel is used ) is the VERY SAME CONCEPT THAT G M IS USING IN ITS " ELECTRIC VOLT " ---- and yes --- I know this concept still uses fuel ( you could of course have a small diesel engine that used old frying oil from a fast food place -- etc ) ---- and if the ECONOMY KEEPS TANKING ---- a relatively cheap conversion may start to look far more attractive than a $ 25,000.00 ? G M VOLT --- and yes --- the plans are still available from MOTHER --- another interesting conversion --- that is probably more simple --- that I saw on the INTERNET uses a very efficient YAMANAR DIESEL ( about 40 H P as I recall ) and a HEAVY DUTY clutch assembly from a snowmobile to replace the existing motor and clutch in a small stick - shift car ---- you wont win trophies at the dragstrip with this baby --- but getting around 100 M P G should be suitable " consolation " --- doing these types of CONVERSIONS --- just might be a method of survival for a COMPETENT DO - IT - YOURSELFER who got laid off and cant find a decent job chubby

re: The Best Alternative Energy Car

slade — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 21:10:23 GMT

Having my initial college education in electrical and mechanical engineering, I pondered the though of using electromagnets in propelling a vehicle. What I did not know is the effect strong EMF's in a vehicle used daily may have on the human body. Has anyone done any extensive research on this?

re: The Best Alternative Energy Car

rfontanes — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 20:53:40 GMT

Gray Stroke,

From what I've seen on some messageboards, not many physics people believe you can get the energy you expect. It just draws it from your battery and taxes your alternator.

My 96' Nissan Sentra 1.6 ltr will get 41 MPG if I Hypermile it a lot. But my starter life is shortened and my catalitic converter is not as hot as it should be to work properlly. You only see the results on paper.