Interesting note on training doctors.

A very good friend was accepted to Medical School.

He OFFERED them an option where he would take LONGER to

get through meds school, etc.  Because he MUST meditate 1hr/day,

and he MUST get 7hrs of sleep.

They laughed at him.  In telling me this, he did some research.

And the way they teach medical school PARALLELS how the CIA will

BRAINWASH someone in captivity.  Including using Sleep Deprivation.

Giving them ALLIES and FACTS at a fast pace, while reserving a

PUNISHER when they fail to re-iterate the proper facts.  After, say

2 years of this kind of environment/training (where you learn the

basics of the body), then they INTRODUCE the THEORIES to the young

doctors.  By This time, they are so conditioned that they are learning

FACTS, you CANNOT ARGUE with them.  They learn it and memorize it as

it is presented, because the system breaks them down.

They have NOTHING left to challenge a view, at the risk of losing their

ability to become a Doctor.

I marvel at this characterization, because it is SCARY accurate to me.

And then in a Big Brother kind of way, they are always watching you.

Ready to pounce if you do not tow the line.

Does anyone else see the parallel?

I certainly see the parallel, yes. Though I thought that the really long hours came AFTER one had earned the title 'Doctor': during the residency.  At least in England, there have been notoriously long on-call shifts, over 100 hours in one week. The junior docs get to sleep but friends who've been through this have mentioned being awakened after an hour, and running several hundred yards to get to an emergency. They were then called upon to make fast, life-and-death decisions in a state of intense fatigue, 'sleep-drunkenness' and panic: definitely dangerous! These extremely long hours were however abolished in England a few years ago, for these very reasons.

In addition to brainwashing techniques, plus as you say having to toe the line or they're out, we should also remember that the sheer huge volume of material that has to be memorised to pass the exams. It would not be possible to question or research every 'fact' that is presented. In my nutritional therapy training, I'm currently even having a little trouble just remembering which minerals are macro, which are micro and which are trace elements. It's fine when you've just learned it, but later...  Some of what I'm learning conflicts with my own research, and this Good Doctor's website, but I still have to remember the 'correct' answers to pass.

I feel your pain Lilyloo. That France idea might not be so bad :). When I got pregnant with my first, we decided to do what we could to make me a SAHM. This way, DH works outside the home and I work inside. By late afternoon to early evening, we're both done with work and that includes homeschooling the kids (and I can still check my email ;))

It means a lower standard of living, we live in a small apartment but have a nice big yard for the kids to play in, our vehicles are paid for, we don't eat out, we don't make unnecessary trips, we don't have cable or satellite and we have the lowest package on the cellphone which DH needs for work.

The upside is at 6pm the rat race is over for both of us and our family can relax together and have a leisurely meal. We boot the kids to bed at 8:30pm and that gives us 1 to 1.5 hours to catch up before we go to bed at 9:30 or 10. Which gives us plenty of time for a good night's sleep to get up at 6:30 and head to the gym before the morning rush. With all the chores done in the week, the weekends are more relaxed as well.

Yeah, I think they know how to do it in other countries. We're so rushed in the US. Everyone I've talked to from other countries tends to comment on that aspect of American culture.  

I read an article by a girl who'd been group-headhunted while doing an engineering degree at Cambridge U (the one in England). Knowing that engineers are maths whizzes, an American bank wined & dined them then offered the best of them 50 grand a year STARTING salary (un heard-of here) to crunch numbers at their London office, plus a 'golden hello' of 10 grandup front.

Vacations? It was made clear that taking ANY time off in the first year was frowned upon even though the contract allowed for 4 weeks, in fact she found that even taking weekends off was considered disloyal, and then anything you said at Monday's meeting was ignored.  The big prize long term was the opportunity to become a top fund manager and join the new super-rich. She stuck it out for exactly one year, to avoid paying back the golden hello, then left to preserve sanity and quality of life. I'm not saying it's because the bank  was American, it's just a sad trend in Western culture.

Contrast: when I lived in Holland, and worked for an English recruitment company, the English staff were horrified at how the Dutch all went home on time every day.

Lilyloo, I too wondered however I would manage when I had a child, and not just myself to take care of - which seemed hard enough. But you manage because you have to, just don't try to be SuperWoman. I now get up at 6 because my daughter has to get up at 6.30, to leave for school by 7.30. I do wonder, though, why YOU have to get up so early. Do you have a long commute? That's horribly stressful.

Hi Lilyloo,

I'm hoping you can see that when you finally get married and decide to have children that you will make the sacrifices necessary (meaning live within your means) to stay home and raise your children and let your husband go off to work so you WILL have the time and energy it takes to raise children. It is not impossible! It is only impossible if we think we must live in a $300,000 house, drive a new car, and buy designer clothes. I have been home the past 25 years raising children (I have 8 kids ranging in age from 33 down to 16), and yes, I had to work some inbetween, but you only get ONE chance to raise kids so you better do it right. Too many people believe that it takes two incomes to make it in America and this isn't necessarliy so.

I have cut coupons (and still do), watch our utilities, buy on sale, at yard sales and thrift stores, and we live very comfortably. My husband makes less than $80,000 a year, and often when we had all 8 kids at home, he made way less than $50,000 and we still made it okay. We didn't have a lot of extras, but we also didn't live off of the government. We lived within our means.

Kids are so much more important than expensive things, careers, and all the other trappings of modern life. Women cannot work full time jobs, raise kids, clean, cook, shop and all the other jobs they must do, and do an adequate job with all of them. Something will suffer, and usually it is the children. Put them first and raise them yourself (not strangers in a daycare) and hopefully there will be less kids who grow up anchorless, headed for jail, and into drugs and alcohol. Moms need to be at home if at all possible.

Too many children today are shuttled off to institutions (daycares) and that is all they know is institutional life (daycare, school, college). This is not how strong families bond or are forged.

Just some words of advice as you think about your future. If you think you are sleep deprived now, just wait till you have kids! :)

LoriSmi: wow, I'm living in the wrong country!! Average salaries in the UK are currently around £24,000 a year for a man, about £14,000 for a woman. I live in rented social housing (council-owned) and I could buy it, but it would cost £170,000 (over $350,000) for a TINY 2-bed house in terrible condition, in a bad area! Prices and cost of living are much lower in the States and 15 years ago (when your oldest was at home), $80,000 a year was surely a pretty comfortable living. I mean, costs have gone up a lot since then.

With post-natal depression that never seemed to go away, I wasn't the best mother. Sometimes professionals can offer something better. My daughter went to an excellent creche in Holland when she was 1 1/2 to 3, and loved it: great structure, care and socialisation. However, when she was 9 she went to an after-school group in the UK but it was not so good and I noticed behavioural problems, so you may be right on that. For the £11,000 poverty-wage I was earning (just over a 1/3 what I made when she was a baby) it wasn't worth it. She's now 13 1/2 and I am still trying to make a living and, seeing teenagers around here go off the rails, I try to work within school hours.

$80,000 in £ value and today's purchasing power (ca £100,000?) is something I can only dream about. After I finish nutritionist training and build my  practice, I hope to earn £50-£60K a year. I plan to move to near my favourite organic/biodynamic farm, where my daughter wants to do a 2-year apprenticeship (YAYY!). I still won't be able to buy a home, unless property prices crash (which they might), but I'll think myself well-off.

Empresslori, forgive my ignorance but what's an SAHM? And DH?  I've seen the term several times on this forum. Who looks after the kids while you both go to the gym?

As to a low standard of living, all things are relative. We can't afford have a car at all. My daughter is the only one at her school who doesn't have a cell phone (so is not damaging her brain) and mine has no credit on it - it's for emergencies only. And we can't afford to use a gym. But we're still a lot better off than millions in the world. Congratulations on homeschooling, by the way. With what they're NOT teaching them at school, and the bad stuff they are, I wish I had the possibility to do the same but I don't have someone else earning a living for me (my brief marriage just meant I lost everything). Anyway, my teaching skills are not great so I take my hat off to you.

Does anyone realize that the way we have made the world is NOT the way we are supposed to be?  We CAN change it; we CAN slow it down.  Just because we "can" does not mean that we should.  Help stop the madness.

this wasn't nothing new to me. these things i already new.

unconscious - you mean unconscious as in being in the state of "sleep" to actually enjoy what you are doing, which is sleeping? Sorry I am slow sometimes...lol. If I am on the right track, then I thought your comment was cute ;)